Friday, November 1, 2013

Divinity 2 - Developers Cut & Dragon Knight Saga: 3D Vision Fix

3D Vision Fix by mike_ar69

1. Trees
2. Water Reflection/refraction
3. Magic effects
4. Fire Haze
5. Clouds, Sun
6. Provided two convergence presets (high/low) (toggle with key "0")
7. Outdoor Shadows
8. UPDATED Complete Fix for perfect Indoor Shadows

A great and under-appreciated RPG, is playable in 3D with some tweaks already, but these fixes improve it significantly.

Tested with both Developers Cut and Dragon Knight Saga.









A video is available on here: .

1. Extract this zip file to the games exe directory.  In my case this is D:\Steam\steamapps\common\Divinity2_dev_cut\bin
2. Play.

NOTE One thing I noticed is that sometimes you go to a level and it looks wrong, especially water - Alt-Tab out of game and back into game fixes it.  Some games are just like this I guess...

Version History
** UPDATE 10-29-2013 Indoor Shadows are now perfect: Latest files are v8
1. This is now a perfect fix.  One knock on effect that I found with watery reflections on a ceiling in a cave, that no longer move around.

** UPDATE 8-23-2013 Indoor Shadows corrected: Latest files are v7.1
1. Corrected indoor shadow rendering.  This is not a perfect fix, but about 95%.

** UPDATE 8-20-2013 Outdoor Shadows fully fixed: Latest files are v6
1. Fixed issue with angle dependent shadows and
2. Shadows from character view.
Only the bit of flickering remains in the odd place.

** UPDATE 8-19-2013 Shadows fixed: Latest files are v5
All outdoor shadows have been fixed, though there are a few anomalies remaining that I don't know how to fix.  These are minor, and the game benefits from the fix overall.  Issues are:
1. Some outdoor levels use a shader such that the fix stops working at certain angles from the light source.  The angle of affect is small, so most of the time you won't see it, and it can be reduced with a higher convergence setting anyway.
2. Shadows are rendered using different shaders when the camera is 'inside the character', and in some cases certain terrain shadows don't render.  They don't even render in 2D.
3. One level I have encountered shadows that 'flicker'.  This level uses the same shader as the one that has the angle dependence.  Again it's not too noticeable/annoying.

** UPDATE 7-31-2013: Latest files are "v4"
1. Fixed dynamic reflections in Sentinel Island
2. Corrected an error where I reintroduced the disabled shader with no dcl_position in it.

** UPDATE 7-30-2013: Files are "v2"
1. Fixed water inside places (caves, dungeons etc)
2. Fixed Forcefield in Orobas Fjord


  1. Is it possible for this fix to work with The Dragon Knight Saga? I have bought this game twice and have no plans to buy again just for the Developers cut.

    1. I am pretty sure it can be converted to work. I originally started working on this game using DKS, but then got Developers Cut as a free update (I think, but I may have bought it, can't remember) on Steam. The shaders were the same content but were different CRCs, so all that would be needed would be to find the same shaders in DKS and copy the fix across. I am re-downloading it now on Steam so will have a look tomorrow when it's done.

    2. It probably works on all versions. It ussually does.

    3. nm. I just read you said different crc's.
      If you have originals still just do dumpall and search for each file so you dont have to navigate manually.

    4. IT WORKS.

      Just dropping the files in the DKS folder, everything works :-) The issue I had before must have been shadows, since that is what I started working on in this game.

      I've updated the title of the post as well.

    5. thanks for your work mike_ar69, i just stopped playing after a few hours of gameplay, your fix does work for the Dragon Knight Saga which you have since pointed out. I did notice one issue though, when you are outside, distance mountains (ones in behind others, background don't render correctly). Other than that from what I can tell, your fix does address the main issues. I used to use the aion.exe profile which removed the tree issue. Other than shadows, do you recommend turning anything else off? cheers!

    6. Awesome, I'm glad it's working. Could you let me have a screen shot, or better still a save game for the mountain issue? I'd like to correct that :-)
      Only shadows need turning off right now as far as I can tell. The game works with HDR on/off as well.
      I am working on shadows (that's how I started on this game actually, many months ago...) but the game is difficult to fix, so I may get there, I may not. I have an approximate shadow fix that works for lower separation and higher convergence, which is not how I like to play, but others might I guess (projector users for example). I might put it up as an 'option' (toggle on-off key perhaps).

    7. Email Larian Studios, I got Developers cut for free when I handed them my Divinty II code.

  2. Replies
    1. Thanks! Post a note if you see any other anomalies (not shadows, I know about them...).

    2. Ok, so it doesn't seems to work for me. The exe is in this location : \Steam\steamapps\common\Divinity2_dev_cut\bin\
      So I put yours files there. But it is normal that you don't have d3d9.dll in your zip ?
      I put the one that is in this site but nothing happens. The "0" keys do nothing and I still have light issue with the sun. But weirdly I have no problem with tree, water or magic...

    3. Ok, I have more details. With the d3d9.dll that I have downloaded here, The patch fix the trees and water but if I touch water(like jumping in it) the game simply crash... Without the patch the game work normaly.

    4. I think he did that when he updated [I do that by accident all the time]. Your right but it needs a particular d3d9.dll

    5. OOO!
      Your right, I know why... Gimme a few minutes.

    6. Yep, everything work now.
      Just the sunlight have some minor issue.


  3. @Mikear69

    You cant just use Vs_3_0
    Or 600/700 series crash

    dcl_position v0
    dcl_position o0

    for pixelshadershaders

    dcl_texcoord v0
    dcl_texcoord o0

  4. @Eqzitara:
    AHHH!! Thanks for that, I had forgotten. And thanks for correcting it so quickly. I am a lowly 500-series user you see... I just checked and I did do it properly for RE6 thankfully.

    @Klown Killer:
    Thanks for this very useful feedback, you spotted quite an issue there that I can never pick up if I forget about it.
    Can you let me know what the issues are with the sun? Are you referring to the God Rays that shine through trees, or the position of the sun in the sky? At one point I was convinced the god rays were wrong, but everything I did to correct them made them look worse so I left it as is - I think the issue with them is that you only really 'see' them when you look at an acute angle i.e. almost directly into them, and this makes them look a bit screen-depthy. Anyway, thanks for the feedback, please let me know of any more issues.

    1. I just checked all my game fixes and this is the only one where I forgot this. Sorry for the oversight, the lack of quality control with us amateur cowboys is shocking...

    2. I referring to the Godray, yes, but it's not quite disturbing. Thx anyway.

  5. Thank you for taking the time to do this and share it, mike_ar69!

    1. I totally agree this game did not get the marketing and attention it deserves. The writing is awesome. ‘Extras’ or NPCs have more character and depth that many games give their main characters. Combat is fun without becoming a finger twister button masher.

      Thank you for motivating me to take a look at the game and fixing stereo 3D issues.

      Some info that might be of use to others. These are not things mike_ar69's work caused nor could it resolve them. These are not setreo 3D shader related:

      1) EVGA Precision X combined with this version of Helix’s d3d9.dll will make the game hang right before it displays the main game menu. The logo video will play then it hangs. The D3D DLL compatibility option in EVGA Precision X is enabled. Some versions of Helix’s d3d9.dll have this issue with Precision and some doesn’t. Fraps works so no big deal. I mention it to help others figure out why their game hangs at launch.

      2) Divinity 2 has poor anti-alias implementation. Anti-aliasing detracts from the 3D experience for me. The edges have different aliasing for each eye due to the separate camera angles of stereo 3D. The Nvidia 3DTV checkerbox video output I am limited to on my DLP TV makes the aliasing more obvious.

      I used the SweetFX 1.4 injector to get SMAA.
      There is a detailed guide for doing this in the guides section of the blog.
      My quick and dirty guide:
      - edit DX9Settings.ini
      - add ProxyLib = C:\Steam\steamapps\common\divinity2_dev_cut\bin\d3d9_sfx.dll
      The path and SweetFX d3d9.dll file rename need to match your setup.

      Don't forget to disable anti-Aliasing in the game's options.

      Try this for anti aliasing. Older games/powerful gpu's can get bang for buck with nvidia inspector.

    3. Thanks Eqzitara. I’ll add that AA compatibility switch to my Nvidia Inspector bag of tricks (e.g., using the Prototype profile for NWN2: Baldur's Gate Reloaded worked great).

      That AA compatibility option defiantly improved things. I ended up disabling HDR in the game options. Something about HDR and how edges get colored also exaggerates aliasing I think. Disabling HDR makes things look darker and less contrast. More tweaks with SweetFX to compensate for that. It is all about trade-offs.

      It is a lot of effort. Stereo 3D gamers know when the game play is good and looks great in 3D the effort is worth it. I know I’m preaching to the choir here.

    4. Yea, but the more you do things the easier it becomes.
      Nvidia inspector was a huge mystery to men and now I understand that in like 10 seconds any unreal engine game can be made sharp. If I werent to bother games would look a lot more ugly. Sweetfx+4MS SGSSAA on borderlands 2 makes it so beautiful.

      WOW, I never heard of Baldur's Gate Reloaded. First off I am glad you read/are using profiles. For so many years people just didn't bother.
      Anywho.. I never heard of Baldur's Gate Reloaded. How is it? And is it "finished"? Dragon Age Origins is my favorite "rpg" [Mass Effect is favorite but its a category of its own]. And gameplay is very similiar it seems.

    5. O yea, was doing something else and remembered a quick tip.

      Steal settings from gaming Photographers. Saves a heck of a lot time and well... they do a lot of research. The biggest issue with nvidia inspector/ whatever is new games and they tend to cover them.

    6. Thanks for the fix. am using sweetfx1.4 and my own preset and nvisia inspctor to improve AA. Great!. I will keep checing and hopefully in future shadows can be fixed.

    7. Kinda off-topic but eqzitara asked and I think folks who like Divinity II would also like Never Winter Night 2: Baldur’s Gate Reloaded.

      For a great story with a through and well written setting (side quest, NPC dialog, etc.) Baldur’s Gate is a classic. You can get the original game in an “Enhanced Edition”. That “EE” game interface still annoyed me too much to enjoy things. I like my eye-candy and S3D. Moving it to the NWN2 game engine is brilliant.

      A few fans took the complete Baldur’s Gate (original not “2”) + add-ons and ported it to the Never Winter Night2 game engine. They used the NWN2 toolset and created it by hand. By that I mean it is not some digital conversion. About 7 years of hobby labor. It looks like they enjoyed what they were doing and took time to do it right. Patch 1 has been released. I played the first few main quests (tutorial area and a bit beyond). I expect it is playable/done. I’m going to wait a few months just to make sure most of the bugs are worked out. It is a huge game with tons of side quests. Like anything of that scale it takes 1,000’s of players to expose most of the strange script engine interaction issues.

      Game play is live action but you can pause as often as you want and micro manage the 6 toon party. AI is not too bad. Player made mods for NWN2 improve the AI a worthwhile amount.

      The NW2 engine is a bit dated but still visually enjoyable. After making it part of the Prototype profile for S3d and SLI the only S3D issue I noticed is the skybox doesn’t have any depth. Shadows, water, spell effects, etc. all look great in S3D. Mouse, HUD, text labels, etc. (the usual) are all at screen depth. It is not Skyrim or Borderlands 2 awesome. It is immersive.

      To anyone interested in this please buy the original Baldur’s Gate (or EE edition) if you don’t already own it. GOG has it cheap. The suits who set budgets and publish games are usually not gamers. Why are many games crap? They still sell. Give the suits some numbers on a spreadsheet that shows a quality game is still selling decades later. Vote for quality with your wallet.

    8. My antialiasing vocabulary is weak. What does “4MS SGSSAA” translate to in the Nvidia Inspector (
      I think it would be this for the Divinity 2 profile:
      Antialiasing compatibility (not DX1x as this is a DX9 game) = 0x000010C1*
      Antialiasing fix = On**
      Antialiasing – Behavior Flags = None
      Antialiasing – Mode = Override any application setting
      Antialiasing – Setting = 4x [4x Multisampling]
      Antialiasing – Transparency Supersampling = 4x Spars Grid Supersampling
      Texture filtering – Negative LOD bias = Allow
      Texture filtering – Quality = High quality

      But SGSSAA breaks S3D. Both left and right eye images are in every frame, not alternating frames. I’ve got 320.18 drivers and 2 590s in SLi.
      Antialiasing compatibility = 0x000030C1***
      Antialiasing – Transparency Supersampling = off/Multisampling

      My sources:
      The above link is in German. I used Google translate.

      * From links 3 and 4 above for SGSSAA. F0C1 lowers my framerate.
      ** New option in GeForce 320.14+ and Nvidia Inspector It is an antialiasing fix for SGSSAA. The German link above talks about it.
      *** Value for MSAA

      Brilliant! for that in-game photographer idea. What a self-forehead slap for not thinking of that idea myself. What am I missing for how to get the settings/injectors, etc. they used?

    9. To wrap up my adventures in AA I stopped using the Nvidia driver AA. Nothing I tried improved image quality enough. Many of them attempts lower frame rates. SweetFX SMAA and no HDR has the best look and frame rates.

      Using AA compatibility = 0x200100C5 did allow 4xSGSSAA to not break S3D. It might be that SGSSAA really wasn’t working though. The image quality didn’t seem like it but the frame rate hit (from 60 to 40) happened so I don’t know.

      This seems like a good source for AA and SLi compatibility bits:

      If anyone does get Nvidia AA looking good please post the relative Nvidia Inspector changes.

    10. Single GPU or SLI Sean?

      Believe it or not but that can effect why some AA flags dont work in 3D [Rarely].
      It seems single gpu's get bad end of stick. SLI generally don't have as many issues [Im guessing when they built 3D vision they had to choose which one to favor to reduce issues].
      I found out semi-recently with LA Noire. Single GPU AA forced override caused visual issues.
      I will have to do some research one day to see if this is something that can be fixed [doubtful if by me].

    11. SLI. x2 590s so 4 GPUs. I look at it as the reason to have SLI is S3D gameing. I personally don't need the GPU horsepower to do 150 fps unless I'm doing S3D (60 fps per eye and the added overhead).

      How do you find out what game photographers did to make things look so good?

    12. They generally list it when you click one of pictures. If not just search "artist name" "game" in google. They generally mention it somewhere.

  6. Thanks for all the feedback everyone - I had not thought of using SweetFX, I think I'll give it a go.

    Regarding shadows - I do have a partial fix that I have not released, because it's "approximate" and needs to be played with quite high convergence. When I get time I'll package it up and provide it as an experimental WIP, some people might like it.

    1. If you want I can put up my sweetfx preset text for people to copy and paste into a txt file 2 use with sweetfx. the vibrant colors are awesome.

    2. Yes I would appreciate that, thanks.

    3. Hi Nick, I’d like to see those SweetFX settings also.

      I have HDR off and ingame brightness set to 60
      My non-default SweetFX settings are:

      sharp_strength 1.00

      Lift Gamma Gain
      RGB_Gamma float3(1.100, 1.100, 1.100)
      RGB_Gain float3(1.100, 1.100, 1.100)

      Vibrance 0.40

      Curves_contrast 0.40

    4. I cant enter preset here cause it is greater then max chars allowable.
      however if you email me at I can reply with my 2 best presets attached.

    5. I hope you enjoy the Presets I emailed you. I use either one or the other in ALL my sweetfx games. :)

  7. Mike_ar69, the water indoors needs an override/fix. It is most visible in Lovis’ tower in the bottom level as most of the floor is water. I hope this isn’t one of those games were every patch of indoor ground water has it’s own CRC. I’ll try to get the CRCs and copy your fix for the outdoor water to see if that works. I’ve not used the debug d3d9.dll yet.

    1. Hi Sean - Thanks for catching this. Easiest thing is to send me a save game, if you can. I doubt you will be able to copy the code from the current water fix. There are 2 or 3 shaders involved, and some pre-shaders that needed correcting. I am confident that the 'pattern' for the fix is the same, and if so then I will be able to find all other shaders and fix them 'blind' without having to actually visit an area first. Another option for me is to use the 'developer version' of the game and try and teleport, but I'll need to find out to use that. I'll try that out but in the meantime if you can host a save game somewhere, or if you use dropbox I can share a directory or something.

    2. OK I found a place with some indoor water and fixed it real easy, so I think it will be easy to sort this out as long as I know where to look. I will create an update with this one fix in, in case it fixes all indoor water (i doubt it but you never know).
      I also found an issue with a big forcefield thing in some canyon somewhere, that can't be fixed only disabled, because its actually defined in the shader in a preshader.

    3. I’m playing the Director’s Cut from Steam in case it matters for the CRCs and using the savegame files.
      I’ve never used Google Drive in this way. I think you can choose the File menu and download the ZIP. If not email me and I’ll send it as an attachment (3.3MB). seaniv at cox dot net.

      Citadel_Dungeon contains:

      Derelict_Tunnels contains:

      PixelShaders are the surface of the water. The reflection is a double image. Both left and right eye viewpoints have their reflections shown at the same time. Probably not what is really happening but it describes the issue.
      VertexShaders are the body of water. The refraction looks OK so I think the issue is with the PixelShaders. My eye is not practiced so refractions may also be off.

      I think the dumps are the same. Just in case I did them separately by clearing the debug dump folder, loading the other save game, cycling through the shaders with the numpad, and re-dumping.

    4. Awesome thanks. I have also managed to properly fix the Forcefield in Orobos Fjords, looks much nicer than disabling it :-)

    5. If you disable an effect can you mention the vertex/pixel shader file name in the comments please? It gives the player the option on how to deal with something that cannot be fixed.

      I use the presets hot key for changing separation to nothing. Effectively turns off S3D. It is for things like that force field effect you mentioned or the room with all the water. Things that make it hard to see in S3D but the visual is important to the gameplay or setting. I can choose to rename the shader override file for that force field effect if I want to keep it in.

      Thanks for looking into all this!

    6. FIXED. Re-download and let me know if I missed anything (or packaged it up wrong). Fortunately it was the same shader I already fixed that fixed both your issues, so I did not have any extra work to do :-)

      I always comment at the top of shaders I fix what they are fixing/disabling, so you can see there.

    7. One thing I noticed is that sometime you go to a level and it looks wrong, especially water - Alt-Tab out and back into game fixes it.

    8. Looking great! Thanks for the update, mike_ar69!

  8. The land reflected in the ocean has dual images. This is less than the skybox for a level of impact. Not a big deal. Don’t see it much. I wouldn’t make a point to fix just this. Maybe add it to a work list. Have a good one!


    PixelShader 302 is the surface of the ocean. 523 changed how the reflection looked.
    VertexShader 280 is the body of the ocean. 450 made the rock out cropping reflection disappear but not the rock out cropping.

    1. Thanks - I just loaded it up. It looked wierd at first with black stuff in the water, then I did the Alt-Tab out and back in trick and it cleared up. I did this again with shadows on and off, restarting the game - always the same - starts with black stuff, atl-tab fixes it.

    2. Just looked again at it in 2D with the Helixmod disabled (so absolutely no fix, not even 3d involved). The black stuff is *shadows*. You need to turn shadows off, I have not fixed them. Been trying to fix them for about 4 months, not managed it yet... Sigh

    3. great effort mike_ar69, your fix is a HUGE improvement and no one can ask much more. This game has a lot to offer in terms of story, humor and a ton of gameplay. Thanks for making this great game highly playable in 3D.

    4. Ok, so there seems to be a bug with this game and 3d vision in general where water is concerned. Again, with the fix disabled, I noticed that if shadows are turned off, the black reflections go away, but do not come back when shadows are turned back on... even in 2D.

    5. Thanks for the feedback Anonymous, I appreciate it :-)

    6. I have shadows turned off. In stereo 3D (S3D) mode you can alternate closing one eye then the other and see the reflection ‘move’ relative to the object it is a reflection of. It is getting rendered from two different viewpoints but the viewpoints are not correct for the S3D eye distance. It is like the reflections are rendering using a different separation and/or convergence value from the rest of the scene. That save game location is looking at things head on to make finding the shaders to dump easier. Turn left and walk back around the shoreline so you are standing on the beach with the tower/cliff to your left. It’s reflection has a greater change between left and right eye from that angle.

      Now that I think about it this may be using the shadow shader code in some way (even with that disabled). Reflections should always be ‘head on’. Changing the viewpoint should not have much effect. Maybe disabling shadows doesn’t disable the reflection of shadows with that game engine. Could be the “Dynamic Reflections” option.

      Mike_ar69, I appreciate everything you’ve done. This game is now very playable in S3D thanks to your efforts!

    7. FIXED! - download updated files (v3) :-)

      Hi Sean IV. So I looked again and yes it was Reflections, not Shadows. My bad - I got confused last night when turning shadows off made the reflections disappear. I won't bore you with all the combinations I went through lol.

      Note that there is definitely a game bug. I disabled 3D Vision in the control panel, and when I Alt-Tab out of the game and back in all the reflections are missing. I played in the game settings a bit as well and it seems to be "Dynamic Reflections". Just worth knowing is something else funny crops up later in the game.

      Thanks for all the feedback on this, and the save games are really great and allow me to get right to the spot straight away. Keep 'em coming (though I will be on vac for about 10 days after today...).

  9. Made a minor update to V4. I had re-introduced the disabled shader with no dcl_position o0 in it. Corrected now.

  10. Made an update to v5. Fixed outdoor shadows. Some issues remain, will fix if I work it out. See main text.

  11. Mad an update, now to v6. Fixed angle dependent shadows, all looks great now.

    1. Cheers mike_ar69, I have used all your fixes to date and now with your recent fix, the game is now pretty much on par with other great 3D titles. This game is a great RPG for the PC. I have several hours in and with this fix, I will finish it. Thanks again and keep up the great work!

    2. Thanks for the feedback :-) It's been great fun working through the fix for this game, which has been a 'work in progress' since I started to learn how to do these fixes back in March. The last thing I plan on looking at (at some point) is the 2D sunrays - I have 'fixed' them already and can display them in 3D but the fix is not acceptable as other things get screwed up, so I need to find a different way to do it: it looks good though and takes away that last bit of 'it's not quite right' feeling when you look at the sky.

      Let me know (post here) if you spot any anomalies, this game is quite big and it's hard to get everything (game also has some bugs which need working around).

  12. Made an update, now to v7. Corrected indoor shadows. These were mostly accurate out of the box, just rendered at slightly too high depth (so a bit under the the surface). This was still actually bothering me, so I added in a fixed correction that makes the indoor shadows I would say 95% correct, and certainly takes away the 'obvious' mal-rendering that becomes noticeable after a while indoors.

  13. Made couple more updates to indoor shadows as I discovered them. I did a batch change of shaders, working on faith that I changed the correct ones...

    I noticed that shadows still display angle dependence in in the Bandits hideout (or whatever its called) and have not been able to resolve it. It's not too bad, and even after using the developers console and teleporting to all other levels I have not seen this effect elsewhere so I am hoping that's the only one.

  14. Thank you very much for your fix, Mike.
    What a great job for such a great game! Having loads of fun with it.

  15. @mike_ar69 I've followed all your fixes and this last fix of yours is truly awesome, the shadows are fixed!!!! I am tempted to start over, this game has hundreds of hours of play....cheers!

    1. Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it. I worked out how to fix the shadows after fixing Lego Marvel Superheroes (would you believe it), and it's amazing how much nicer indoors sections look as a result. I've still a fair bit left to play in this game, including Flames of Vengeance, so I am set :-)

  16. Not sure whats not working properly, I have it installed in the right directory, but the fixes are not doing anything for me. I have used helix mods before without issue. I've installed it in the directory, I reinstalled it to be sure, an nothing seems to be working.

    1. Which version of divinity 2 do you have?
      I haven't played game but I know there are 3 versions.
      Divinity 2 / Divinity 2 Dragon Knight Saga / Divinity 2 Developers Cut

      Only the later two were tested.

    2. I have the divinity 2 developers cut.

    3. I just installed it. Your right. Something changed but its all good
      Install to..
      \Divinity2_dev_cut\ + \Divinity2_dev_cut\Bin\

  17. Thank you very much! I'll give it a try today when I get home from work.

  18. It seems to work beautifully, except at some given spots in the game, I get a hard CTD with always the same message:

    Problem signature:
    Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
    Application Name: Divinity2.exe
    Application Version: 1.4.700.49
    Application Timestamp: 5069ab57
    Fault Module Name: D3D9.DLL
    Fault Module Version:
    Fault Module Timestamp: 5135a4c7
    Exception Code: c0000005
    Exception Offset: 000043b6
    OS Version: 6.1.7601.
    Locale ID: 3084
    Additional Information 1: 0a9e
    Additional Information 2: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789
    Additional Information 3: 0a9e
    Additional Information 4: 0a9e372d3b4ad19135b953a78882e789

    Obviously that refers to the d3d9.dll that is included in this fix.

    What am I doing differently than those for whom this works flawlessly though? That's the question, isn't it?